Maddy in conversation
with Jairam Ramesh, author of ‘A Chequered Brilliance: The Many Lives of V.K.
Krishna Menon’
While many people have opined that they could never
understand VK Krishna Menon or his ways, let alone his actions, even those who
have been close to him throughout his life such as Jawaharlal Nehru have admitted
being somewhat puzzled by his character. Menon remained an enigma and thus became
a cause for the birth of many a myth or legend. One person who has recently
taken upon himself to study Menon at depth is none other than Jairam Ramesh,
who has just released a hefty treatise on Menon and his life’s journey. It is
as he defines it, a chronological archival biography, documenting Menon’s successes
and failures, relying on a huge amount of archival records, some which have
been just released into public domain, some which had been top secret
intelligence agency records and interspersed good amount of personal correspondence obtained
from members of his family.
I have been studying Menon and his life for well over 10
years and have written about him off and on, but I must admit that the sheer
depth of Jairam’s study of the ‘undiplomatic diplomat’ and ‘the politically incorrect politician’,
provided me appropriate answers and references to many of my remaining
questions.
An opportunity for a conversation with the author was
therefore a godsend.
We are now in conversation with Jairam Ramesh, an
academic, an economist, a politician and a chronicler of the Nehru times
through his books on Indira Gandhi, PN Haskar and now Krishna Menon. Jairam Ramesh
as a politician belonging to the Indian National Congress, served previously as
a Union Cabinet minister.
Jairam Ramesh |
Armed with a bachelor’s degree in Mechanical engineer from
IIT Bombay, he proceeded for higher studies to the Carnegie Melon University in
USA where he acquired a master’s degree in Public policy and management. His
doctoral studies at MIT were cut short due to family exigencies and Jairam
found himself back in India in the late 70’s. Brief stints with the World bank,
the planning commission and the CSIR provided him the necessary grounding for
work in the complicated field of the Indian economy and its growth as well as
its environment. By 2004 he had been inducted into the AICC, thus entering politics,
and was subsequently elected as a member of parliament. In 2009, he took over
responsibilities first as Minister of
State for environment and forests and later in 2011 as Cabinet Minister for
Rural development (with an additional charge for Drinking water and Sanitation).
His fields of study and expertise cover Indo China relations, the Nehru years,
forests and environment, the Indian
economy and rural development.
Last month, Jairam released his well-researched, compelling
and detailed biography of VK Krishna Menon. There have been extensive reviews
and coverage on the book as well as personal interviews with the author, in the
print and visual media.
In this conversation with Jairam, we will not only touch
upon some of the usual topics associated with Menon, but also get to know Menon
the human being, a little better. Hopefully, Menon will be a less of an enigma,
to our readers, when we finish.
-----
Maddy: Thank you Ramesh for giving me the opportunity to
discuss the topic of Krishna Menon and his chequered life, one that is of
mutual interest. Let’s start with your choice of study. Why and how did you
choose Krishna Menon as a subject? Was it because it required one to understand
Menon if he or she had to understand Nehru’s actions? Is it so that Nehru and
Menon were in intellectual tandem, or even better, in mental harmony throughout
their careers?
Jairam Ramesh : I chose VKKM because he was such a
consequential figure in Nehru’s life between
1935 and 1964. He was Nehru’s intellectual soulmate and indeed an integral part of his family. No
student of Indian political history can ignore Nehru and no student of Nehru
can ignore VKKM. To understand India’s role in world affairs in the 1950s
especially requires an understanding of VKKM. Also, he left behind a treasure trove of personal papers
which make a narrative biography based on contemporary written material
possible. Other than that VKKM is such a fascinating figure—warts and all.
V K Krishna Menon |
Maddy: In my opinion, the typical cynical Malayali has
differing points of view and his/her actions are at times a bit different and
nonconforming. Was Menon more English in outlook and did he lose anything by
way of this Kerala character after his settlement in UK?
Jairam Ramesh :VKKM spoke, read or wrote no Malayalam.
Other than his sister VK Janaki Amma I can’t think of any decisive ‘Kerala’
influence on him except M.A. Candeth who helped him out in Presidency
College in Madras. He was certainly more
English than Malayali in his outlook. Incidentally, he vehemently opposed the
formation of a separate state of Kerala in 1956 as I have discussed in my book
and warned Nehru against accepting this recommendation that was being canvassed by another distinguished
Malayali, K.M.Panikkar. VKKM’s constantly fought against fellow Malayalis in
Delhi—VP Menon, KPS Menon, TG Sanjeevi Pillai and N. R. Pillai . But it was not just Malayalis he combated. He was an
equal opportunity offence giver. Also, he tacitly supported the imposition of
Article 356 in Kerala in 1959. Ironically one of the ministers in the dismissed
EMS government was to later establish the Krishna Menon Memorial Society in
1975—V.R. Krishna Iyer. And of course
VKKM won elections in 1969
(Midnapur) and 1971 (Trivandrum) with the full support of the
Communists.
Maddy: Menon did some stints as a lawyer, once as a lawyer
for Udham Singh (who assassinated O’ Dwyer) and many decades later as the
lawyer for EMS Namboothiripad of Kerala. Why did he choose these high-profile cases,
and did he argue a good defense?
Jairam Ramesh : His legal career was nothing much to write
home about except these two cases. He also appeared in the famous bank
nationalization case in the Supreme Court in 1969. In England he appeared pro
bono many times in behalf of Indian clients. He did create the Indian Society
of International Law in New Delhi which is now housed in VKKM Bhawan and has a
bust of his at its entrance. But on the whole his legal accomplishments like
that of Nehru was mediocre.
Maddy: The Nehruvian years had many a Menon and Nair
traversing the corridors of power in the various offices at South Delhi, so
much so that a joke used to circulate around that Delhi had been affected by
Menongitis. Aubrey Menen, the great satirist mentions in his autobiography that
he changed his surname from Menon to MENEN only to differentiate himself from ‘the
Krishna Menon’ he admired greatly (both were contemporaries in London). Would
you say that Menon suffered his fellow Malayalis greatly? Did he think any one
of them passed muster? KM Panikkar for one was also close to Nehru and dealt
extensively in China affairs. Did Menon have a good working relationship with Panikkar
on China?
Jairam Ramesh : I have already addressed this. Other than
M.O. Mathai, VKKM was at loggerheads with other Malayalis in the corridors of
power. KPS found him insufferable. Sanjeevi Pillai thought he was a communist
and VP Menon thought he was Nehru’s busybody. Mathai and he were very close although Mathai has been scathing about
VKKM in his scurrilous and unreliable memoirs. One Malayali VKKM was very fond
of and close to for all his life was Shankara
Menon who lived in Madras and worked with Rukmini Devi to build Kalakshetra.
VKKM wrote for Mathrubhumi for many years from London—his articles were
translated into Malayalam.
Maddy: One of the bones of contention between Menon and
Panikkar was the creation of Kerala on linguistic lines. Menon was against
balkanization of India as he termed it and thought it was nothing more than a
personal view of KM Panikkar.
Jairam Ramesh : Yes,
VKKM was against the creation of a separate Kerala on the grounds that it would
become a communist bastion. He was also
against the creation of a separate Madras on the grounds that it would become a
citadel of linguistic fanaticism. He argued for a large multi-lingual Dakshin
Pradesh. But Nehru realized it was a romantic idea even though it appealed to
him instinctively. Nehru was a strong advocate for the retention of a
multi-lingual Bombay state and was persuaded finally by Indira Gandhi only in
1960 to agree to the creation of a separate Gujarat and Maharashtra. In the
1950s there were also proposals for one West Bengal-Bihar state which was advocated
by people like BC Roy. I have dealt with this subject in my CD Deshmukh
Memorial Lecture at the India International Centre in January 2019.
Maddy: Why did Menon get a hostile reception when he arrived
at Delhi and why did it continue throughout his life? Why was he not given an
opportunity or flexibility to perform? All his life in parliament, the
opposition e.g. Kriplani and Morarji Desai were baying for his blood, is it so
that he was being attacked as a proxy since Nehru was a difficult (being immensely
popular) target?
Maddy: Menon was famous for surviving by drinking a great
many cups of tea and munching a few buns. It is interesting to note that he was
instrumental in bringing some South Indian cooks first to London and later to
Delhi. It is said that Menon would go on an overdrive to help his fellow
countrymen, is that right?
Jairam Ramesh : He was extraordinarily helpful to all and
sundry but especially to Indian students who came to England. He was very
solicitous about their welfare and well-being and built cheap hostel
accommodation in London for them. He took on cases for Indian clients without
expectation of being paid. He was completely non-parochial.
Maddy: Menon was at times like a child, be it his enthusiasm
on collecting toys or his interest in field games. There are mentions of his
gleefully running on to the field after India’s hockey team beat Britain 4-0 in
the 1948 London Olympics and another, years later, after retirement, of his running
barefoot to a journalist clutching a radio (in an Allahabad hotel reception
area) only to ask what the latest cricket score was. Was he always like that,
an enthusiastic and ardent supporter of Indian players and artistes?
Jairam Ramesh : Many stories of him are of course
apocryphal—both the positive ones and negative ones too. I have used only those
for which I was able to get written evidence and confirmation. But yes, when he
was in London he supported Indian artists enthusiastically. Mulk Raj Anand I
venture to suggest was a major influence on him in this regard . So was Rukmini
Devi. Between 1957 and 1962 almost all of Bollywood was in thrall of him. He
figures, for instance, in Dev Anand’s
autobiography. Balraj Sahni and KA Abbas were his acolytes.
Maddy: It is said that Menon was instrumental in roping in Lata
Mangeshkar to sing at what became her first overseas outing - the famous Albert
Hall concert. What is the story behind it? Was Menon a music enthusiast?
Jairam
Ramesh : He roped in the Nightingale of India in early 1974 to raise funds for
his pet project—a Nehru Centre in London. Lata had been his ardent admirer for
almost twenty years and she responded to his appeal instantaneously. The Centre
finally saw the light of India with Government of India support two decades
later.
Maddy: Menon’s actions were sometimes driven by emotions and
at other times by self-preservation but were usually logical. It is therefore surprising
that he was quite superstitious and took to checking his future often with
astrologers in Malabar. Is that right?
Jairam Ramesh : I found this aspect of his personality most
difficult to understand. The supreme rationalist, the strong leftist, the
atheist of sorts, the great believer in modernity and science was besotted with
astrology and bugged his sister Janaki Amma every now and then on this score. That doughty lady
showed his horoscope to different astrologers mainly in and around Calicut. One
predicted he would marry and have a son—so much for astrologers!!!
Maddy: Menon was plagued by the infamous Jeep case, for much
of his working life. Why was it not cleared up and why was the complete Iyengar
report never made available to the public? Was it an error of judgement, did Menon make
legitimate, but purposeful errors or was he a victim of the circumstances?
Jairam Ramesh : I have
dealt with the jeep scandal in great detail based on material that has never
before been available. It is on the basis of a careful reading of this material
that I came to the conclusion that VKKM’s buddies did make money and that part
of the money was used to support the India League and its various activities. I
find it difficult to believe that VKKM did not know that his friends were not
all that straight. But he allowed them unfettered access and defended them till
the very end. VKKM should be accused of poor judgment. Whether he was complicit
is really hard to tell although it would be natural to come to that conclusion.
VKKM was a poor administrator and really violated all procedures in the jeeps
saga although the Indian army too was not without blemish.
Maddy: Many a resource mention Menon’s dependence on
Luminal, a phenobarbital prescribed for seizures, anxiety, insomnia etc. Was it
perhaps a reason for his occasional bouts of incoherence and irrational
behavior?
Jairam Ramesh : Mine is not a medical or psychological
biography. Yes, he was under medication for various afflictions including
arthritis and recurring back pain. I don't delve into what effect medication
for them may have had on his moods although I do say he was prone to frequent mood-swings, bouts of self-pity and
self-recrimination. His arrogance masked many insecurities although why he
should be insecure foxed me.
Maddy: There is an interesting story of Menon Vs Menon and
how KPS’s wife’s letter found its way to VK’s room. Were they good friends or
adversaries?
Jairam Ramesh : VKKM and KPSM were adversaries in the peak
of their careers although KPS was very generous in his tribute on VKKM’s death
in 1974 which I have used. KPS and VKKM were ideologically aligned but their
personalities were different. VKKM may have resented the fact that KPS was an
ICS officer and that Nehru was fond of him too.
Maddy: Menon had a rough time with the army brass from the
very beginning of his tenure as defense minister. While it is quite clear in
hindsight that he was unsuited for such a position, did Nehru persist with him
due to the need for a dependable and trustworthy ally holding that most
important portfolio? Were there cross purposes at play, such as the
army brass desire to import armaments from the west right at the outset?
Jairam Ramesh : I have dealt with this in detail in the
book. VKKM had thought of India’s defence policy in the mid-1950s and written
to Nehru on it. Nehru was looking for a livewire as defence minister having
himself held that portfolio for almost two years. Between 1957 and 1959 VKKM
justified his appointment hugely. He started establishing the foundations of
India’s defence production industry and made the DRDO a reality. He was very
popular among the lower ranks of the armed forces. He initiated the
modernization of the armed forces. But from mid-1959 onward things began to
change and his clash with Thimayya particularly began to dent his image. The
top army leadership was also at fault and for the first time I bring out their
shenanigans as well. True, the army (and air force) wanted western equipment
which was not very often agreed to by VKKM on very valid grounds. The top army
personnel spoke loosely which fuelled VKKM’s irritation with them. After the
Ayub Khan coup in Pakistan in 1958, VKKM became wary of the larger than life
figures in the armed forces like Thimayya. Adding to the problem was that for
3-4 months a year VKKM was away as head
of the Indian delegation to the UN which
allowed space and time for cross purposes come into play.
Maddy: Menon was frequently pilloried by his critics and his
detractors through the press to get at him and his boss Nehru - should Menon in hindsight have employed a public
relations assistant or a press secretary? Would it have burnished his image?
Jairam Ramesh : Yes, VKKM
was his own worst enemy by what he said and how he said it. The press was
divided on him. He had his champions and
he had his detractors in equal measure. He didn’t particularly care for his
image I must admit. But he was too much of a maverick to be subject to the
discipline of an organized PR machinery. He could be charming and abrasive at
the same time. Even the articles most critical of him would almost always
highlight his positive attributes and his strengths. The thing to understand is that he was a bundle of
contradictions and he made no effort to hide them.
Maddy: Menon’s role in the Indo -China war of 1962 is
perhaps one of the most talked about in his public life. It is also known that important documents such
as the Henderson Brooks report are still not released for reasons of national
security. Does your study reveal influence of other nations and larger
geopolitical events in precipitating the 62 debacle or was it fully or
partially due to the foreword policy
action? What exactly was Mao Tse-Tung’s role in the Chinese decision to
attack?
Jairam Ramesh : These are questions that have been studied
and continue to be studied by scholars all over the world. Mine is not a
history of why and how 1962 happened.
Mine is a biography of one of the pivotal figures of the 1962 episode. VKKM
always believed that the decision to attack India was that of Mao—and
scholarship has indeed upheld that position contrary to Neville Maxwell’s
coloured account. Rod Macfarqahar and John Garver have addressed Mao’s role in
triggering the 1962 war in my view quite definitively.
Maddy: Continuing with Menon and 1962 – why was the Indian
air force not used in this war? Was it to prevent the escalation of a
relatively smaller skirmish into a large-scale war? Was it not known to India,
at least through her Russian connections that the Chinese air force was
grounded due to lack of spare parts from Russia at that moment?
Jairam Ramesh : I have not dealt with this at all because I
found no archival evidence on the subject. My book was not a history of what
happened or did not happen in 1962 but a biography of VKKM. Maybe there are
files in the Ministry of Defence and the Prime Minister’s Office that would
hopefully be declassified soon so that this particular question of yours can be
answered convincingly.
Maddy: MO Mathai who was once a good friend and supporter of
Krishna Menon later became a bitter enemy, what was the reason behind this
development?
Jairam Ramesh : By (1959 – Maddy) Mathai was a bitter man,
bitter that he had been forced out from Nehru’s innermost circle. Between 1946
and 1957 Mathai and VKKM were close and friendly. Their letters to each other
were very warm. Both were chums of Rajkumari Amrit Kaur. But the ‘left lobby’
finally ousted Mathai and it was speculated that VKKM played a part in Mathai’s
exit. There is no clinching evidence though to substantiate this speculation.
Maddy: Several Bollywood actors, directors and writers held
Menon in high esteem. How did Menon discover and develop camaraderie with that
unlikely corner? Was it due to the efforts of Dr Baliga and Blitz Karanjia?
Jairam Ramesh : Yes Dr. Baliga the famous (doctor) played a hugely influential role in this
regard and there is a wonderful picture in my book of VKKM with him and Nutan. But there were
others like Rajni Patel, Balraj Sahni, Raj Kapoor, Nargis, K.A. Abbas who also helped
VKKM become the darling of Bollywood. It certainly helped that both in 1957 and
1962 VKKM won the Lok Sabha elections from Bombay.
Thank you Jairam for
the erudite answers and a stimulating discussion.
The book is I can assure you, compelling reading, for those
who want a deeper insight into the Nehru years and VKKM himself.
In conclusion, I add here an extract from Jairam's book introducing VKKM, laying the ground for an excellent study.
This new biography
does not intend to eulogize Krishna Menon for his numerous contributions nor
castigate him for his many sins. It is, instead meant to be a clinically
objective narrative of his chequered life, based almost entirely on contemporary
documentary evidence. I narrate a complex tale letting the written material
speak for themselves. Krishna Menon is an eminently fit subject for what has
been called ‘psychohistory’. I have refrained from tilling that field and have stuck
mostly to what the archives can tell us. This is not a judgmental undertaking:
it is, instead, what I could call a pretty straightforward narrative biography.
As far as possible, I have kept myself out of the story. Krishna Menon’s
proponents have spun many legends, just as his detractors have propagated many
myths. Neither approach does full justice to the man and his mix of
contradictions and brilliance. My task has been to pierce through the legends
and the myths, the embellishments and the exaggerations and present the mans as
he was – erratic, insecure, frequently acerbic in speech, very often
supercilious in silence, but always arresting and compelling. He could never be
ignored and always stood out, warts and all.
Krishna Menon was never a perfect or infallible person. In
his public life, he was eminently suited for certain roles while proving to be
an abject failure in others. He was always the greatest traveling salesman and
spokesman for India at august gatherings such as the United Nations or as a
roving ambassador for Nehru. But when amongst his subordinates and colleagues,
he proved to be a difficult manager - opinionated, abrasive, authoritarian and sometimes,
downright rude. Nevertheless, while some focus on the devious actions he took
to prove his point or his bad manners, others vouch for his resolute work ethic,
flashes of brilliance and total honesty.
In the end, Menon was a just a man who held India foremost
in his heart and actions, his friend Nehru a close second and no one or nothing
thereafter.
Notes
- K Sankara Menon who administered Kalakshetra, was VK Krishna Menon’s cousin brother. Sankara Menon was the youngest of three sons of Vengalil Sankara Menon and Kariottukalathil Kalyani Amma from Calicut.
- O’ Dywer’s role in the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre has been covered in the following articles - Dwyer, Dyer and Nair , Hans Raj - The British Approver
- The club which Menon set up was the India club and the hostel is now the Indian YMCA. I have stayed there a few times, a very well-located place!
- For details of what Dev Anand had to say about VKKM, read this article, Two facets of Krishna Menon
9 comments:
Hi Maddy,
Your interview with Jairam Ramesh made splendid reading. So much so, I am intrigued enough to have made up my mind to buy his book and read it in full.
You and I went to school together. Our Alma Mater, Sainik School Kazhakootam (Trivandrum) was a brainchild of the late VK Krishna Menon. In fact, while he was the defense minister, he set up sixteen or so of these schools across the nation to nurture future officers for the forces. I think this is among his most tangible and lasting contribution to the nation.
Our Sainik School journey has etched a very deep, larger that life image of Krishna Menon in my mind. I do have a faint recollection of seeing him in flesh and blood when he visited the school once.
Thanks for this nice interview on your blog!
Thanks Manu,
did he visit SSKZM in the 70-74 time frame or earlier? I just cant recall the event, for that was the period when i was a kazhak..
Glad you enjoyed it ...
Wonderful to know so much more of a person we admired as the founding father of our Alma Mater, who took personal interest in hand picking some of the early teachers, who made us what we are. This unsung genius was much more than the villain of the Himalayan Blunder. Thanks a lot for yet another blog, Maady Sir.
Thanks a lot for bringing back that enigmatic figure we knew an the man who founded our great school and handpicked the wonderful teachers who made us what we are, Maddy Sir. Sometimes I wonder if our schoolmates carry a streak of this unsung architect of modern India, who was falsely crucified for the Himalayan Blunder. My shipyard, Mazagon Docks was also launched by him, as a PSU.
Thank you for this wonderful interview. I just bought the book. It is a door-stopper, and almost as long as one of Menon's speeches! Speaking of Menongitis, the new (long-awaited) biography of V. P. Menon just came out. Can't wait to get my hands on it. Do review it when you get the opportunity. I read your earlier article on VP with great interest. A forgotten genius from our part of the world, and of such monumental consequence to the shape of India as a republic!
Thanks Ramesh
Glad you liked it, would of course be glad if that streak of honesty and hardworking ethic is carried through!!
Thanks
Waiting for the release of the VP Menon book, had been one of the first to introduce him on this blog some years ago!
In nut shell all menons and pillais and panikkers were fighting in delhi!!! Typical mallus(jokingly)
Jokes apart, they were people of calibre and acumen, even great nehru used their calibre
Vp menon was on other side, with patel
One kerala joke, i remember, one menon does not like another menon!!
They all contributed for evolment of india republic
Great interview maddy sir
In nut shell all menons and pillais and panikkers were fighting in delhi!!! Typical mallus(jokingly)
Jokes apart, they were people of calibre and acumen, even great nehru used their calibre
Vp menon was on other side, with patel
One kerala joke, i remember, one menon does not like another menon!!
They all contributed for evolment of india republic
Great interview maddy sir
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